The Guild of Pagans

[Luxord]: what are U 2 talking about?

[Fuu]: nothing of much importance. How be thy Rey?

[Luxord]: UHHHHH? *can't figure out how to respond* uh... good.

[Fuu]: y r u confused?

[Nere]: perhaps, how art thou may have been a better alternitive Alana..... :P

[Nimune]: i need advice on who I should read for info on non-mainstrream religions.... HELP!!!

[Nere]: I rather kick you.....  -.-

[Nimune]: do you want my very intelligent input (from a relatively unbiased perspective) or not?

[Nere]: not........ *walks off*

[Fuu]: *laughs*perhaps you are right nere.

[Nere]: *bows and waves from a distance*

[Nimune]: *breaks out the Batz Maru squeaky toy* Grrrrr....

[Anna-Rebecca]: *lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala*

[Nere]: *grabs her extra large squeaky dog bone*

[Fuu]: What in the world? I don't want to know, fare thy well for now

[Nimune]: seriously, which authors do you recommend, Nere?

[Nere]: I don't really know any..... my small town library isn't full of good material on the subject and all the bookstores have are lame "teenage witch spell books" Grrrrrrrr!

[Nimune]: *sighs* damn them all... I just need to read up on the stuff, I don't give a shit about the spells themselves, I want to know the beliefs behind it...

[Nere]: ..........I'll have a look at my communities ...

[Nimune]: thanks

[sezmo lex]: there are only like 2 of you in this chat box!

[Nere]: so........................

[Nimune]: you should see the other pages we are on... we probably have a sum total of six or seven full pages of chat accumulated on each of three other wikis.

[Nere]: ...... it does explain why we run out of conversation topics so fast though.....

[Nimune]: yeah, no kidding

[Nere]: ........ I dropped all my beads...... shit.....

[Nimune]: huh?

[Nere]: i was putting beads onto this stretchy elastic sort of stuff and as i was trying to tie it up it slipped out my fingers and they went all over the freckin floor!!

[Nimune]: that would explain your lapses in replies

[Nere]: ..........yeah.........

[Thorgin]: Yay! Today I am doing my rite of self-initiation. ^__^

[Nere]: Cool! Good luck!................*wonders if that works*

[Fuu]: lol. Good luck, don't mess up the ceremony. *it does work but its better in a coven*

[Nere]: *no i mean whether good luck really applies...... its not like he's doing a test ....but then again he kinda is...soo.... 0.o"?*

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Well, it isn't better in a coven, just different. Of course, it helps to have a coven to determine if you've studied enough, but I think Thorgin's clearheaded enough not to rush right into something.

[Nimune]: hmmm.... I got my hands on a few books and it seems that I am effectively doing everything in them that does not have to do with the material parts of wicca... that is wierd, and makes me wonder wether or not I have chosen a wrong system of beliefs.

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Do whatever feels right to you. The books are guidelines. I know that I don't agree exactly with my friend's beliefs (also Wiccan), and she doesn't believe in some aspects of her friends, so that's all fine.

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: yea i am kindof a mix between greek gods and goddesses, wiccan nature worshiping, and calming zen

[Fireblade K'Chona]: I'm still trying to pick out my path, and so at the moment I'm uneasily settled on the Christian Trinity for the God (which is what I was brought up with) and the Goddess on the other end of the equation.

[The Stray]: i thought there were 4 christian gods....

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: wow i thought that there was only 1

[The Stray]: well... there is "god", Jesus(who may also be considered a demigod), "the spirit", and Lucifer.... i think... i supose all the angels could be considered demigods also... and the popes....

[Nere]: .... what about the 'holy ghost" ?? .....

[Anna-Rebecca]: Conventional christians worship the Holy Trinity - God (the father), Jesus (the son), and the Holy Spirit (god's sacred power on earth). Lucifer is supposedly a fallen angel, and the pope is just a priest to whom catholics give way too much power and reverance

[Nere]: what an odd conversation for this particular wiki......

[Anna-Rebecca]: indeed. so...paganism anyone?

[Delladreing]: why are we talking about jesus?

[Anna-Rebecca]: exactly

[Thorgin]: The rite went well, but then i hit my toe and the damn thing started to bleed

[Anna-Rebecca]: awwww *hugs*

[Fuu]: owies

[Cati Stormweaver]: I cast a spell tonight, my friend taught it to me, so i tried it, and her sister did too

[Fuu]: did it work? what is it suppose to do actually?

[Cati Stormweaver]: well, im not sure yet, it was a love spell

[Nere]: ......... hmmmmmmmm *makes concerned noise* what kind of love spell?

[Cati Stormweaver]: just really to make my crush like me back, nothing special...

[Fireblade K'Chona]: *wince* Why do I have an odd feeling about this? *concerned* love spells are the ones most like to backfire.

[Cati Stormweaver]: omg! why didnt my friend tell me that!!! *runs into a dark corner ans sits there*

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Well, what does your friend know about Paganism? (I am genuinely trying to help here...excuse the bit of nosiness.) And her sister? Are they Pagan?

[Cati Stormweaver]: my friend is a christian, but she amazliy alot about witchcraft, and im not really sure about her sister

[Cati Stormweaver]: she has a friend thats a witch, she learned it from her, her friend is a really expreiced witch,

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Well, if her friend was truly experienced, she would know how to do these kinds of spells. If your friend's friend has learned spells from a book in a store...well, I can't predict what could happen. Since love-spells are fairly common mistakes, I don't think the repercussions will be too severe, but I don't know. Your opinion, Nere?

[Peaches]: Just out of mild curiousity and concern, a friend of mine.."cast a spell" or curse i guess on a friend of hers that ticked her off and when that friend didn't turn up for school that day, she automatically assumed that her spell/curse had worked.. i dont think she really knows much about paganism.. is it right that she assumes and claims she has power.. nothing against anyone here but i dont think she knows what shes doing.. and she sort of goes on arrogantly about her uh power..

[Cati Stormweaver]: i not really sure what kind of book she has though, but does the backfire go as far as to that person hating you?

[Fireblade K'Chona]: No, it isn't that...hmm. How to put this. If you cast a love spell on a guy, a possible repercussion might be a lot of guys crushing on you. Which gets annoying.

[Cati Stormweaver]: *widens eyes* i have tried this spell before!! so that might be why another boy like me......

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Oh dear. If you've done it TWICE...*wince*

[Cati Stormweaver]: *widens eyes* i have tried this spell before!! so that could be the reason another boy likes me......

[Cati Stormweaver]: i dont think im gonna use this spell anymore!!!

[Fireblade K'Chona]: *sigh* Good decision. Just weather it out and see what it does...and get someone else's opinion on it, too. Nere's or someone's. I don't have that much practical experience.

[Nere]: ....sorry.... i got distracted... as for loves spells.... the main problem is that they can effect the whole "An ye harm none" thing... plus we have no right to impinge on free will. its not nice... and its not authentic... a spell to encourage some one to come foreward if they like you maybe.. but never try to make anyone do anything.... *shakes head* i don't know much, but i know thats a no no....

[Cati Stormweaver]: yeah i was thinking about the free will thing, but after this im not gonna use that one anymore, after learning about the backfire it can cause....

[Nere]: ... You were lucky that was all it did.... *growls* fortunately much of the spells found in those annoying "Witchcraft for teenagers" sorts of books don't work, otherwise the shit would really hit the fan....

[Cati Stormweaver]: well, my friend does have a friend thats a real witch, but she watched the show "Charmed" alot, and she thinks almost all of it is real witchcraft, so she told me to do a spell based on how they did it, and then to "make up" my chant, so it propably didnt work likt you said

[Nere]: .... *shrugs* Charmed is a cute show.... but definitely not good enough to base your faith on.... they get a lot of it wrong :P ....

[Anna-Rebecca]: Yeah, I love charmed, but it is a load of crap. Although I liked it a whole lot more when Cole was in it....mmmmmm

[Nere]: ...... well I don't know what you'ra watching... but the season thats on now in Aus is shitful......

[Anna-Rebecca]: we're on season six I think. It's quite depressing at the moment though

[Davorah]: Hey if any of you know how and like to draw I have an Easter/Ostara Contest going on...=^.^=

[Cati Stormweaver]: yeah thats what i thought about Charmed.......

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Never saw Charmed...all I've seen about witchcraft in the media, really, (not books) is a cartoon version of Sabrina the Teenage Witch (babysitting) and...hmm. *thinks* A chunk of one of the filmed Sabrina-Teenage-Witch ones. Babysitting again. *shrug* Though Isobel Bird's books are very good. (Circle of Three! Love 'em.)

[FallenDarkness]: Ya know...I've always been interested in witchcraft,magic, pagans, etc; but I never really learned anything about it. I did so,e spells with my best friends and made it rain once...but they were just spells off a sight and I don't think it was my power...does anyone really know where to start??I'm gonna join this place at least though...

[Cati Stormweaver]: http://www.alisonmoroney.com/mystic/layout_spells.html  thats were i got the love spell i tried first, then another boy asked me for my phone number.......

[Anna-Rebecca]: perhaps we should shy away from these then...hmm?

[Nimune]: perhaps a "stay away" list for bad sites and authors should be instigated...?

[Anna-Rebecca]: that's a good idea

[Nimune]: NERE!!!!!!

[Fuu]: lol. thats interesting spirit.

[Nimune]: spirit? huh?

[Cati Stormweaver]: i wanted to know if that was a powerful spell fomr that site?

[Nimune]: if it actually worked, then it theoretically was a powerful spell for that page. For anyone who practices regularly, however, it would not be.

[Nere]: Nice to know I'm wanted..... -.-

[Nimune]: sorry...

[Nere]: ...................... no your not :P

[Nimune]: YES I AM!

[Nere]: .......... I gotta go.... bloody mum.... grrrrrrrr..... sigh... see ya later maybe, if your on...

[Fuu]: Nimune is right spirit

[Cati Stormweaver]: ok, well, im not gonna be casting for awhile anyway

[Nere]: Maybe read up on as much as you can before you do another......

[Anna-Rebecca]: yeah. And casting for casting's sake isn't a good idea in the first place

[Fuu]: yea, there must be a reason behind the spell, casting it for the sake of casting is never recommended

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: i dont cast... i have no reason to cast... and i consider myself lucky cause personaly i would not like to meddle in matters in which are not mine to meddle in.

[Anna-Rebecca]: It's very much against my beliefs to cast spells that a) meddle with another person's thoughts/psyche or b) affect others without their permission (like healing spells on people who don't want them)

[Lithium Lullaby]: Hello

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: i dont believe that any matters should be meddled in because everything happens for a reason and if you stop something from happening you may just not make that effect that was to come of it happen as well... if you stop someone from getting limes disesse you may just have stoped the person from finding a cure fo this illness

[Cati Stormweaver]: ok, ok i get it, you guys can talk about something else now...... i learned my lesson very well.....

[Fireblade K'Chona]: I'm going to France for 9 days tomorrow! I'd appreciate any prayers for safety on airplanes, incidentally, but you don't need to.

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: ill pray but i wont cast.... i never do...

[Davorah]: so yes..next subject...

[Fireblade K'Chona]: Thank you! ^_^

[Nere]: RainbowStar .... you only have to say it once.... okay? -.-" if fate exists, then all is predetermined, thus casting will have no affect, so it doesn't matter anyway.....

[Anna-Rebecca]: anyway, moving on.

[Davorah]: indeed! so how was everyones' day?

[Davorah]: Ooo! Good subject: "What are you doing for Ostara?"

[Fuu]: I don't know as of yet, unfortuantly I haven't had a chance to plan for Ostara

[Nere]: .... hmmmmmm.... Samhain is coming up Down here in Under..... I think mum and I will probably have a big dinner and, of course, light candles for the dead...

[Fuu]: *thinking* Oh wait Ostara has passed already in America....Beltane is apporaching though

[Davorah]: why yesh it has! But at least it got us away from that subject...*raises both eyebrows*

[ave]: this ostra was the first year hubbie wanted to be involved...we each did up an egg, and plan to bury it come beltain

[Davorah]: Ooo sounds fun!

[BarleySinger]: If anyone wants to listen to it, I have a piece of music online that is rather"pagan" in nature (well several actually). The piece I wished to share with you all is called "Womb of Mother" and can be found on this page  ( http://music.creative-interweb.com/kenlinder/archive.page )

[Fuu]: thank you Singer

[Beautyeverywhere]: Hello

[gncb]: hello

[Nymph_Goddess]: hi guys is sumone able to give me some information where i will be able to find a cleansing spell

[Nere]: erm.....maybe..... well i know smudging with sage is good.... erm....

[Our Lady of Sorrow]: no idea...

[Nimune]: One that I have heard that works is in the book 'True Magick' by Amber K. I haven't done much with spells myself lately, though.

[Rondel]: You might find something of interest in "Psychic Self-Defense", by Dion Fortune, as well...

[Nimune]: Does anyone here know much about spirit animals?

[Anna-Rebecca]: I know about spirit guides, but not spirit animals (unless of course these are the same thing and I'm just being a moron)

[Nimune]: they are... I think...

[Nimune]: the question is, is it possible to be an incarnation of one yourself?

[Nymph_Goddess]: thanks for your help i found what i was looking for ;)

[Nimune]: where did you find it?

[Nymph_Goddess]: on a few dif websites and i had something else to look up aswell

[Nimune]: be careful... some websites are trouble...

[Nymph_Goddess]: i know but i only went to websites that are owned by definet witches

[Davorah]: just b/c their "definite witches" doesn't mean their not trouble...

[Nymph_Goddess]: yes i do know that i am a very cautious person anyway

[Nymph_Goddess]: has any of you guys and gals heard of the Bucklands Complete Book Of Witchcraft and if so is it worth buying i have had a quick scan through the book and it looks good i would just like sum info bout it

[Nere]: hey Nim.... spirit animals/guides try...(http://groups.msn.com/covenstead/animalguides1.msnw) .... it might help :)

[Rondel]: Buckland is actually a rather long-standing and well-respected author within the Wiccan/Pagan community. If nothing else, I'd consider that particular book an excellent reference for understanding the perspective of those who follow the religious path described therein.

[Lithium Lullaby]: Helloz I just got suspended for pounding this girls face in because she was acting like the snob she was to me.

[Delladreing]: umm...hmm ok well im about to smash sum1s face in any tips? *murderous mood*

[Lithium Lullaby]: Sound like it would hurt but it sounds fun

[Anna-Rebecca]: just feel the love in here...

[raiderxx]: lol yeah

[Delladreing]: lol hahah yea well i hav a good excuse for being filled with murderous rage lol :p

[Fuu]: woudl that reson be ur scanner?

[Beautyeverywhere]: does anyone know if it was a full or new moon last night or what the moon should be tonight? can't find my moon calender.

[Nere]: erm.... it was a dark moon on Monday here....

[Rondel]: There are some good online Moon calendars; is anyone interested in the URLs for any of them? Personally, I'd rather share resources like that, or discuss the *ethics* of "smashing someone's face in", rather than the act of doing so. Besides, isn't hitting someone a sign that you've given them power over you, by letting their choices determine your actions? Hitting someone doesn't make them less a snob, or make you a better person; it just makes you a violent person, and a channel for negative energy to enter the world. If one is secure in one's sense of one's self, would another person's attitude be able to move one to violence?

[Master Wolf]: I'd love URLs for moon calenders. SOunds better than the previous convo to me.

[Delladreing]: i hav 2 reasons for being so mad one is the scanner the other is that sum1 ticked me off waaay too many times and now i might have to kill them......

[Nimune]: the thing is, without a balance of positive and negative energy the world would decay (see my philosophy at my house)

[Anna-Rebecca]: indeed, like the heat death theory. Physics dictates that if the universe survives long enough then, at some point, everything will eventually have the same energy, so no energy can be transfered, meaning nothing can happen and the universe effectively comes to an end

[Delladreing]: always nice to knw 0.o (soz if that sounded cheeky its not meant to!!)

[Anna-Rebecca]: oh yes

[Delladreing]: hmm *hopes she wont be reincarnated at that point wen the universe overheats* lol

[Anna-Rebecca]: it won't overheat, everything will have the same heat energy

[Delladreing]: *confused* explain it to me wen im a bit more awake lol i cant seem to understand anything today...

[Anna-Rebecca]: fair enough ;) people aren't supposed to understand physics

[Delladreing]: lol yea my friend took it as an advanced subject and she always has a headache now lol

[Anna-Rebecca]: that's why I'm doing stupidly easy advanced highers next year

[raiderxx]: thats a good idea

[Anna-Rebecca]: english, music and bio. should be a nice relaxed year

[raiderxx]: thats it?

[Anna-Rebecca]: uh, yeah. Advanced Highers are equal to first year university in their level of difficulty. Three is a lot

[Rondel]: To put it more simply, when things interact, energy (in the form of heat) is transferred from the hotter item to the colder. When all things have an equal level of heat, no energy can transfer from one to the other -- just as you can't warm up one person's hands with someone else's, if they're both equally warm. Since (as mentioned earlier) all interactions involve a transfer of energy (and therefore heat) from one object to another, when no heat can be transferred, no interaction can take place. It's a *very* rough approximation of a complex concept, and might make a physics professor cringe, but it should make the idea easier to understand. :)

[Nere]: ...... yep... i can see how that would be essential knowledge for any Wiccan........

[Rondel]: I happen to believe that understanding the universe is a good thing to attempt, even if one is unlikely to master it, and mathematics and physics are among the languages in which the nature of the universe can best be expressed. So, I'd rather at least try to make a concept comprehensible than give up and label the subject as one of which "man was not meant to know". :) As for balancing the positive and negative in the world, if balance is your goal, I'd suggest you start by determining which type of energy is exceeding its rightful quota, and adding the *other* kind. I don't personally view the universe as being deficient in "negativity".

[Nimune]: true, but then in my belief it is a personal emotional balance that causes the end of life, not energy being incapable of passing from one point to the next.

[Nere]: .....hey... your replying on the assumption that i was being sarcastic.... *raises an eyebrow*

[Nere]: What if I wasn't?...

[Rondel]: As for Moon Calendars, you can find a variety of them, online, print, you name it, they're out there. One good online version is http://www.ameritech.net/users/paulcarlisle/MoonCalendar.html and of course, there's also a good print company at http://www.mooncalendar.co.uk/ -- they even offer an almanac with everything you might want to know in order to do Moon Planting.

[Rondel]: Actually, that wasn't a reply, it was a continuation of the previous comment. Would you rather I made the series of assumptions necessary for me to reply? I saw no reason to, and plenty of reason not to, starting with the fact that it would be necessary for me to assume that your comment was in relation to mine, rather than any of the selection of others to which it might apply. I'm not that egocentric; I prefer to leave it to others to make clear to whom they are speaking, in a public venue such as this one.

[Nere]: ...... oh goddess preserve.... bugger this....

[Nimune]: why don't you just post 'em all above and bugger off?

[Nere]: actually... more to the point... are you wiccan or pagan? because the purpose of this wiki was, mainly to discuss things related to that following... not to debate over comments and clarify physics terms...

[Rondel]: Yes, I am pagan; I have spent a year and a day in a Wiccan coven as well as practising as a solitary, and I happen to think that it's important for people to remember that practising a religion doesn't require setting aside one's scientific mind -- nor degenerating into comments about whom one feels the need to kill, and/or why. But, please feel free to continue your discussions without me. Obviously there are more important topics intended to be covered by your topic specification at the top of the page: "This page is for pagans and wiccans to come together and discuss... well, whatever! This is an interactive community, so please take part in discussions, etc. We do want your input!"

[Nere]: rolls her eyes* Fine lady....whatever.... I shall remember in future to avoid jerking your chain... as i have enough lectures to attend without adding yours to my list.....

[BarleySinger]: Umm Nere, 1) If you don't want to read other peoples ideas, stay offline / at home / in a dark room - far away from the web. 2) you were not being lectured by Rondel, you were being spoken to by a person capable of communication beyond the level of "see Dick run". 3) Either you were being very disagreeable (which is not very "welcoming") or you were "yanking her chain" (also not very welcoming) If it was "chain yanking" for fun(?) I don't understand the idea. I never really considered making other people feel bad or uncomfortable to be fun myself. It is a form of torment. None of which is conducive to open communication, good discussions, or "perfect love and perfect trust".

[Lewis of Llynn]: well, now that everyone's got all riled up, i'd better put my two cents in. rondel, no disrespect intended, but it seems as if you were a little... touchy. Maybe that's just the way I read it, but in any case, why don't we all just forget about it. It's not important in the grand scheme of things, after all... =)

[BarleySinger]: I don't see Rondel as having been touchy at all. It helps to understand that some of the messages have disapeared from the conversation. Right after the statement "...... oh goddess preserve.... bugger this.... " Rondel was asked rudely and directly if she was even pagan. She replied to that statement. I saw that post. Then I went to reply later on and the extreme level of rudeness was gone. Poof. One of the disadvantages of people being able to edit their messages on Elftown is that people can change the way *you* look by getting rid of their own snarky remarks and leaving only your reply to them.

[BarleySinger]: As for the "grand scheme of things", the existence of planet earth isn't very important in that grand scheme, but I am rather fond of it as it is the only game in town (so to speak). Since we are all human animals here, a part of our "only game in town" is "human interaction" - it is important. I think that posting something really rude, getting an annoyed but pretty even tempered response from somebody, and then doctoring the evidence so that people can not longer see what an ass you were, is a nasty thing to do. It is manipulative and shows serious dishonesty, a lack of character and a general lack of human decency. Bye folks. Life is too short to spend it with snarky ego-tripping peo

[Nere]: well ner.... i felt like she was giving me a lashing for trying to have a little fun and not take everything so serious all the time... if i misconstrued, then I am sorry... 

[BarleySinger]: I don't see anything you said to anyone so far on this Wiki, being about "trying to have a little fun and not take everything so serious all the time". You reply makes no sense at all.

[BarleySinger]: Also, She wasn't giving anyone a lashing. She isn't into that. She works real hard to be honest and kind to people, which is a pretty good feat for a person on 240mg+ of oxycontin a day just so she can manage to walk from the bedroom to the computer and not writhe in pain for too much of each day. She also has severe environmental illness, to the point that newspaper ink burns her skin and blisters it. So basically you attacked a very nice disabled person, who can't go out into the poluted world that Dupont and Monsanto have created out of greed (because it could kill her), with a lot of intelligence and kindness toward others, who was being straight with you. 

[Anna-Rebecca]: umm...you can't use disability as a shield. One of my best friends has MS and can't walk and we rip the piss out of her for saying something stupid just like we would to anyone else.

[Anna-Rebecca]: I'm not saying she said something stupid, just that you can go 'you can't say that, she's disabled' every time someone says something you don't like. Equality is a double edged sword

[Delladreing]: lady almight i go offline and this starts up lol *only trying to lighten the mood so dont shoot me...pleases!!* my brother is disabled i spend all day caring for him in skool and out. he doesnt use his disability as a shield nor would he dream of letting others do it for him. and even if he wasnt disabled he still wouldnt let others argue his case just cause some one is severly disabled doesnt mean you cant jokearound with them me and my brother are always taking the rip out of each other and hes better at it than me 0.o and hes the youngest

[Anna-Rebecca]: exactly

[Nimune]: You must understand that Nere does not exactly enjoy mathmatical subjects... and she does try to have a little fun... I mean, she even goes far enough to post recipies for fun food on the page, and when she is feeling boisterous, she gets trampled for it... I do the exact same thing, and even wrote the same damn reply, but she beat me to the submit button, and so I erased mine. If I had been the first to submit, would I have recieved the 'publicity' that she recieved above, or are you targeting the person kind enough to manage the wiki because she is rather well known?

[BarleySinger]: [Nimune] First off, you are 18 and I am 40. Although I doubt you understand this, we do not live in the same reality. In the adult world of jobs and responsibility, who is popular on ELftown is less important than you could ever imagine. Not being a jerk to people who are being open and straightforward IS on the other hand, important. Once you are out of the artificial world of school for a decade or so, you will realize how totally unimportant popularity is, and how important it is to be of good character. Just because a person isn't into math, dosn't mean that they should trash people who are. That is called "Tall Poppy Syndrome", and it is cruel and narcisistic head space to be in.

[The Stray]: stop arguing... try to see that you are both right... though i have not read all the comments, you are both rather judging it seems... conclusions you jump to... onsided stories... maybe two sided stories... but even though... "There are two sides to every story, and twelve to every song" - irish proverb... look at the situation from different angles before you say thngs... and just... well... we need to restore some controlled apathy to this world...

[BarleySinger]: ---two sides to every story. I have mosty heard that from people who don't like have to deal with difficult moral delemias that might stop them from having fun, might make them take a stand. When a person is standing still and another person hits them, there is only one side to the attack.

[BarleySinger]: [Delladreing] and [Anna-Rebecca] I was not saying that disability is a shield for poor behaviour. It isn't. I was trying to get across (and failing I guess) that acusing anyone of "giving a lashing" just because they have good language skills (and one is threatened by that, and can't get past it) is silly and IMHO wrong. Acusing a person who takes great pains to be nice, is even more wrong. Acusing a person who takes great pains to be nice under extreme circumstances is worse yet. I am not using [Rondel]s disabilty as a shiled. I am pointing it out (because it is a real factor in life) to make it obvious that trashing her was a very crappy thing to do-

[BarleySinger]: [Delladreing] and [Anna-Rebecca]-especially given the effort that she puts into her life. I realize that yuo may have no appreciation for that. It you don't, more the pity for you. People put effort into the things that they do. Some people have to put a lot of effort into common things, and still do a better job than those with no obstacles at all. Imagine for a moment that you accuse your healthy brother of not taking the trash out when he did. That would show a lack of respect for his work. Now imagine that your arthritic grandmother (with a walker) takes the trash out. It takes her 45 mintues to do it, in pain all the way...and she does a perfect job of sorting all the-

[BarleySinger]: [Delladreing] and [Anna-Rebecca]-recyclables and putting stuff into the compost....and leaves the can perfectly clean...and then you accuse HER of not doing it. It really is a worse thing to do. It shows no respect for the other person and no empathy for who they are. That is all I meant. Now I think it would be best if I went away and let this die, since IMHO you folks are pretty out of touch with reality, and have no clue what life is about or how important it is not to take sport in being mean to other people. "Taking the piss" out of another person because they are good at somthing, only does one thing. It shows what a small person the attacker is.